Road Racing - Ungeared Awards
This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.Comments about this discussion:
Started
The IUF rule for Road Racing makes it clear that at Unicon there should be awards for ungeared riders when there are five or more geared riders in an Unlimited event, but then makes no determination for other events.
4.2.1 Ungeared Awards
At Unicon, for each gender (male and female) where there are five or more geared riders in an Unlimited event, the fastest three ungeared riders from that gender will be awarded with an ungeared title for that event. This is only for the overall classification, not for Age Groups. Other events can choose to award the fastest three, one, or none of the ungeared riders as they wish.
If we adopt this text verbatim this leaves the USA policy for NAUCC or other USA events undefined. I think we need to state the USA rule for geared vs ungeared awards and suggest that we adopt the same ruling as the IUF. This differs from the current USA rulebook as it awards the fastest three ungeared riders vs just the Ungeared Champion (when there are five or geared riders), but with use of geared cycles becoming more prevalent every year I think it is important to recognise the advantage a geared cycle can have and award accordingly.
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more and more geared riders are coming. the advantage of the geared hub is clear. even with my limited experience in road racing it never sat well with me that i was competing directly with geared riders. weather it be cost or the inability to wield the power of a geared hub, i feel the top 3 ungeared rider should be recognised.
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I actually like the current USA Rulebook version better. Looking at the results from NAUCC 2015, the top three ungeared riders would span a large time range. In my opinion, the top 2 male ungeared racers at NAUCC were those who would've been in contention if they had had gears. However, beyond that, I don't think that it is the gear that is the limiting factor. For example, if you look at the marathon, there was a 10 minute time gap between #1 ungeared and #2 ungeared. And then there was a 15 minute time gap between #2 ungeared and #3 ungeared. I personally don't think that a 25 minute time gap between #1 and #3 on the podium is reasonable for the Overall Expert Award.
I would prefer to stick with requiring that only the top ungeared rider is awarded. The host can always decide to award more.
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i like the way IUF has it. I don't really do distance stuff but in muni i would agree with what mike said if the coarse favors a geared hub it can really make a difference
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I can't quite believe this so will happy to be corrected, but I can't find guidelines for how the Overall Road Race Champions are determined in the IUF Rulebook nor in the current USA rulebook.
That said, from the information provided for the NAUCC 2015 Overall Distance Championship calculation (https://uniregistration.s3.amazonaws.com/naucc2015/uploads/competition_result/results_file/89/NAUCC2015_Overall_Distance.pdf) the placings were based on the sum of a riders average speed for each Road Racing event regardless of geared or ungeared - this differs from the points system for Overall Track based on placings. With this system using summed average speeds, just because an ungeared rider gets a podium award does not make the result equivalent with a geared rider in the Overall Road Racing competition.
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I guess I interpreted this rule differently. I took this sentence, This is only for the overall classification, not for Age Groups. to mean that only the top riders of each event (10k, marathon, etc.) would be awarded as opposed to the top riders in each age group of each event. I believe that overall classification is referring to the overall for each event as opposed to the overall for each discipline. If you go back to the sentence before I think this clarifies it. will be awarded with an ungeared title for that event By claiming a title it is for a single event, not a discipline in this case.
Mark, you are correct that the calculations for the overall are not anywhere in the rulebook. This has always been up to the host's discretion. From an IUF standpoint, Unicon 17 in Montreal was the first time that an overall award was given for road racing. The hosts of NAUCC have done the overall calculations for road racing in many different ways over the years in the hopes of finding the fairest method. This year was the first time that I felt like the calculation was fair and took into account the many factors of road racing like margin of victory and length of race. Garrett can attest to the discussions that have gone on behind the scenes with the hosts of NAUCC. Although I think that this year's method was the best so far I think it merits more testing before it should be put into the rulebook, if at all.
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I like the idea of awarding the fastest ungeared riders. Geared riders almost always have an advantage especially for road races and not everyone can afford them or sometimes they aren't even available (think they have been out of stock for like a year or so).
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I like the way the rule currently stands. For some races, especially with ones that just barely meet the 5 ungeared riders requirement, it would be too easy for riders to take an award.
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If we are really going to talk about quality of awards, I would think that we would want to just make a general expression regarding the number of competitors within the event to qualify for award. There are often times when there are only a very small number of competitors in a class.
I think it is fairly clear that geared and ungeared are fundamentally different. I would be tempted to examine number of competitors to determine if it merits division.
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I think that everyone agrees that there should be an ungeared award. I think the question is whether this should be required for the top 3 riders or only the top rider. Bearing in mind that the host could always add more.
My opinion is that there still aren't enough riders total to merit top 3. I think it would be too easy to place.
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Using NAUCC 2015 Unlimited marathon as an example (since it was brought up earlier in this discussion), there were 25 male riders - of these, six were geared riders and they had the five fastest times. That means there were 19 ungeared male riders - almost as many male riders as in the 10K Standard race that year.
If there is an argument for there not being enough riders to merit the top 3 ungeared finishers, perhaps it is with the womens races? At last year's NAUCC there were only eight riders in the Unlimited class and only one was geared. However, using the IUF rule as written, as I understand it no ungeared womens awards would be given as there were less than five geared riders of this gender.
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I guess that I should amend my earlier comment. In my opinion it has less to do with the the number of riders than the closeness of competition within the top riders. Sometimes the two go together but not always. For example, the competition between the top three females in unlimited racing in 2014 was super close. There weren't many female riders at all but the ones that were there were highly competitive. However, right now with the men we are seeing the majority of the top riders having gears. Those who are ungeared are not in close competition with a time span of 25 minutes in the 2015 marathon.
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I do see folks that race a lot (running or bike) appreciate getting "on the podium" in small races, fully aware that they aren't really top racers, so I'd imagine unicyclists are similar, but hosts discretion seems reasonable to me.
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The proposal which has been created based on this discussion is worded to honour only the top ungeared rider of each gender. I would like to see it amended to include the top three ungeared riders (with the proviso carried that there are five or more geared riders of that gender). This would align us with the current IUF ruling.
I think arguments that it will be 'too easy' to place or that there was too much of a time span between first and third in a particular set of results is flawed - all races or events depend on who turns up and competes on the day. Sometimes slower riders may place, other times they will not.
I think the important point is that at a 1.5x advantage, the geared 36" has an effective diameter of 56" (when in high gear) - this is the same exactly separation in wheel size between a standard 24" and a 36" ungeared. They also have an advantage of being able to shift on the fly to account for terrain. Geared racers are in a minority, but when there are five or more of them they effectively have their own race and the ungeared racers should have theirs. I'm sure no-one on this board would suggest that we should consolidate 24" and 36" ungeared into a single race or award, but this is the situation the ungeared 36" riders are currently stuck with racing against the geared 36"s.
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i would like to see some thought on how this proposal applies to muni. i personal think it should
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it's possible that one day the geared hub will become the norm, and the ungeared rider will be considered riding in classic style? a lot woild have to happen between now and then. maybe membership explodes due to expousure in a movie. maybe geared hubs become more affordable due to manufacturing competition. if and when that happens the ungeared rider will still be in the same boat if we don't choose to view what seems clear to myself now and before ever participating in a road race. that is, that geared riders don't need to be in direct competition with ungeared riders for awards. naturally they can race simultaneously on the same course and the geared riders will shoot out ahead and will quickly be lapping the ungeared riders. if we dont recognize that riding geared is a whole different deal now, will the ungeared riders have to wait until they are considered riding in classic style to be recognized? i can tell you if that happens no one will care about it then either.
its likely this same discussion happened back in the day when pennyfarthing racers had to learn to compete with the new "safety bike". nothing more than a bike with equally sized wheels. riders didn"t endo over the bars and smash their skulls and thus probably won more races. is that a good analogy? maybe, maybe not.
in any case, i feel the first three ungeared riders should be recognized. i agree with mark on this concept of "too much of a time span between the first and third ungeared riders across the line". it's irrelevant. also, everything else mark said was rolling around in my head and i could not have said it better.
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It was hard for me to tell from the discussion exactly who was in favor of three riders versus one rider. It seemed pretty even from my point of view. I think that something needs to be passed either way and so I just took the initiative and started the proposal. If I hear overwhelmingly that people want to give it to three then I can change it. I decided to go with one for the proposal because it errs on the side of fewer awards (less money) for the hosts and the hosts can always choose to add more.
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if you are asking for the VOTING members to weigh in on this topic to clairify their position then we should so that the version of the proposal is correct. if all voting members do not take the time to clairify their position it may be best to word the proposal based on the ones who do rather than an assumption.
my positon is that the top 3 geared and ungeared riders be recognised.
upon further consideration it occured to me that some people come to naucc for fun. i would hope, and think most come to compete and the possibility of being on the podium is a strong motivator for developing an effective training program to achieve a goal. a goal is an improtant thing to have throughout life. futhermore, i feel if the geared riders eat up most of the podium spots, the scenario serves as a demotivator for ungeared riders to possibly even compete.
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I'm also for top 3 of both.
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I think I would also support top 3 of both.
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I don't think this should be applied to muni due to the fact that I'm pretty sure ungeared has won every NAUCC XC to date. If the course is designed correctly than a geared doesn't usually add an advantage.